I am looking for other people's technique for stall recovery. Before I flew
F-4s, I dropped the nose to gain airspeed well above stall speed and then
recovered well away from stall angle of attack. After F-4 training, I would
lower the nose to get just below the stall and recover with the airplane of
the verge of a stall. This is done by the feel of the airplane buffet and
handling characteristics and not by looking at airspeed. While training for
air to air combat, I flew the F-4 by feel to be close to stall. This is
done to turn rate in combat.

The key to the later stall recovery technique is to be very good at flying
the airplane very close to the stall by using aircraft feel, i.e. practice
slow flight a lot. The advantage is very little altitude lost in the
recovery.

Danny Deger

Basically true for any swept wing, non-digital flight control, aircraft.
The F-4 hard wing had variations of buffet that could be flown to quite
precisely: light, moderate, heavy, Jimmy? Best technique for stall
recovery is to reduce AOA to max lift or slightly below, pretty much what
you describe. Feel and buffet cues can be adequate, sometimes it's
necessary to check the AOA.

The soft wing had little buffet. AOA gauge was essential. Easy to maneuver
yourself into an energy hole. Saw a lot of F-4S guys do this.

Modern A/C can generate so much AOA that they can maneuver while enduring
massive induced drag (resulting in rapid airspeed and/or altitude loss ...
Kinetic or Potential, its all PsubS).

R / John

"Danny Deger" > wrote in message
...
>I am looking for other people's technique for stall recovery. Before I
>flew F-4s, I dropped the nose to gain airspeed well above stall speed and
>then recovered well away from stall angle of attack. After F-4 training, I
>would lower the nose to get just below the stall and recover with the
>airplane of the verge of a stall. This is done by the feel of the airplane
>buffet and handling characteristics and not by looking at airspeed. While
>training for air to air combat, I flew the F-4 by feel to be close to
>stall. This is done to turn rate in combat.
>
> The key to the later stall recovery technique is to be very good at flying
> the airplane very close to the stall by using aircraft feel, i.e. practice
> slow flight a lot. The advantage is very little altitude lost in the
> recovery.
>
> Danny Deger
>

Danny Deger writes:

> I am looking for other people's technique for stall recovery.

Diminish the angle of attack. You can do this by changing pitch or
changing speed to change the angle at which the airstream meets the
wings. Modulate this in accordance with circumstances. If you don't
have much altitude, pitching downward may not be the way to do it. If
you are already at maximum thrust, increasing speed may not be an
option.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:32:05 -0600, "Danny Deger"
> wrote:

>I am looking for other people's technique for stall recovery. Before I flew
>F-4s, I dropped the nose to gain airspeed well above stall speed and then
>recovered well away from stall angle of attack. After F-4 training, I would
>lower the nose to get just below the stall and recover with the airplane of
>the verge of a stall. This is done by the feel of the airplane buffet and
>handling characteristics and not by looking at airspeed. While training for
>air to air combat, I flew the F-4 by feel to be close to stall. This is
>done to turn rate in combat.
>
>The key to the later stall recovery technique is to be very good at flying
>the airplane very close to the stall by using aircraft feel, i.e. practice
>slow flight a lot. The advantage is very little altitude lost in the
>recovery.

That works for Debonairs, F33s, Cherokees, and most others as well. On
my last biennial flight review the instructor wanted to see if I could
stall the plane in a departure stall and not lose any altitude. We
could and even in a stall from slow flight with every thing hanging
out the loss was about 30 feet.
>
>Danny Deger
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Danny Deger" > wrote in message
...
>
> The key to the later stall recovery technique is to be very good at flying the
> airplane very close to the stall by using aircraft feel, i.e. practice slow
> flight a lot. The advantage is very little altitude lost in the recovery.

Any glider pilot will know exactly what you are talking about. The best
way to gain altitude in a thermal is usually to be in a tight turn (to remain in
the core of the thermal) and remain just a couple knots over the stall. If you
feel the stall start to happen, you just release some back pressure until things
feel ok again.

Vaughn



>
> Danny Deger
>

In article >,
mumbled
> If you don't have much altitude, pitching downward may not be the way to do it. If
> you are already at maximum thrust, increasing speed may not be an option.
>

If you have a combination of these two it may be time to give the
aircraft back to the taxpayers....

Tankfixer writes:

> If you have a combination of these two it may be time to give the
> aircraft back to the taxpayers....

Some aircraft are designed specifically to fly in a "coffin corner"
(e.g., the U-2). I hope they have automated systems, as it would be
very tiring to maintain that hour after hour.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:52:07 GMT, Tankfixer >
wrote:

>In article >,
mumbled
>> If you don't have much altitude, pitching downward may not be the way to do it. If
>> you are already at maximum thrust, increasing speed may not be an option.
>>
>
>If you have a combination of these two it may be time to give the
>aircraft back to the taxpayers....

It is considered poor form to run out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas
all at the same time.

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 04:20:50 -0500, Roger > wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:52:07 GMT, Tankfixer >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> mumbled
> >> If you don't have much altitude, pitching downward may not be the way to do it. If
> >> you are already at maximum thrust, increasing speed may not be an option.
> >>
> >
> >If you have a combination of these two it may be time to give the
> >aircraft back to the taxpayers....
>
> It is considered poor form to run out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas
> all at the same time.

Unless you have just executed a pefect landing, and that was what you
intended to do. :-)

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:31:31 -0500, Jay Somerset
>> wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 04:20:50 -0500, Roger > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:52:07 GMT, Tankfixer >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> mumbled
>> >> If you don't have much altitude, pitching downward may not be the way to do it. If
>> >> you are already at maximum thrust, increasing speed may not be an option.
>> >>
>> >
>> >If you have a combination of these two it may be time to give the
>> >aircraft back to the taxpayers....
>>
>> It is considered poor form to run out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas
>> all at the same time.
>
>Unless you have just executed a pefect landing, and that was what you
>intended to do. :-)

But the perfect landing doesn't include all three. Air speed and
altitude I'd agree, but you still have ideas left as in not it's time
to taxi to the hangar or go get gas. <:-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

In article >,
mumbled
> On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:52:07 GMT, Tankfixer >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> mumbled
> >> If you don't have much altitude, pitching downward may not be the way to do it. If
> >> you are already at maximum thrust, increasing speed may not be an option.
> >>
> >
> >If you have a combination of these two it may be time to give the
> >aircraft back to the taxpayers....
>
> It is considered poor form to run out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas
> all at the same time.

IT can be a career limiting move that is for sure.


--
Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a
diet of static text and
cascading "threads."

Y'All,
I very much agree with Vaughn Simons approach to stall recognition. I found
that I could greatly decrease a student's apprehension about the 'stall' by
introducing them to the low power-on oscillating stall series in a
C-150.

From 'clean' level cruise we would reduce power to 1500 rpm and continue
holding altitude at that power
into the stall which usually shows with one wing or the other dropping.
This is corrected not with the yoke
but by using the rudder to raise the wing. We would work the rudder as
needed to raise the wing and break the stall until it required lowering the
nose. The series could be repeated over and over within a 100' altitude
margin.

Try it, you'll love it and never fear the intentional stall again. It is
the unintentional stall that is the killer.

Gene

> wrote in message
. ..
> Y'All,
> I very much agree with Vaughn Simons approach to stall recognition. I
> found that I could greatly decrease a student's apprehension about the
> 'stall' by introducing them to the low power-on oscillating stall series
> in a
> C-150.
>
> From 'clean' level cruise we would reduce power to 1500 rpm and continue
> holding altitude at that power
> into the stall which usually shows with one wing or the other dropping.
> This is corrected not with the yoke
> but by using the rudder to raise the wing. We would work the rudder as
> needed to raise the wing and break the stall until it required lowering
> the nose. The series could be repeated over and over within a 100'
> altitude margin.
>

I agree with this 100%. Every pilot should be very good at using rudders to
raise a dropped wing in a stall. I also think the stall should be "barely"
broken and the plane recovered this way -- as opposed to a subtantial drop
in the nose to recover.

Danny Deger